Interview of Ambassador Tigran Mkrtchyan to TV100 Thessaloniki, one of the largest television stations in northern Greece

12 March, 2022

Reporter: (Speaking in Greek) Ladies and gentlemen, good evening. Today our guest is the Ambassador of the Republic of Armenia to the Republic of Greece Tigran Mkrtchyan. Mr. Mkrtchyan, it is a great honour for us to host you. We are very grateful that you are with us.

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a great honour.

Reporter: I understand that you speak a little Greek which is why the first address was in Greek, but of course, we will take it in English from now on. To get the elephant out of the room, I would like to start this discussion with a big issue of these days which is the war. What is your country's official position regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: The official position is of course supporting the peaceful solution of the conflict, supporting both sides actually to reach this solution because it's a human tragedy that is evolving in Ukraine with the first and the third biggest Armenian communities in Europe. The biggest one is in Russia and the third biggest one is in Ukraine, therefore, Armenia is doing everything it can, its utmost to first of all safeguard its country's fellowmen who are unfortunately involved in this conflict from both sides. We wish a quick solution, of course, an exclusively peaceful solution to the conflict in Ukraine.

Reporter: Now what are your biggest fears about the war? How much do you think and where is it likely to expand?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: First of all, one of the biggest fears is naturally the human tragedy which is happening: the deaths, the people who are dying of course in Ukraine. Naturally, it's also having a huge impact on the outflow of migrants, refugees and you can understand there are lots of Armenians who are trying to escape from there, to reach Armenia or to the neighbouring European countries.

So our diplomatic missions are fully engaged in trying to safeguard our fellow countrymen and naturally of course as you rightly mentioned the possibilities of the conflict spreading around, becoming fiercer is a huge concern for everybody. This is what the international community should work on with the parties engaged in the conflict to avoid. But one of the reasons that we are witnessing this tragedy happening is also in a way related to the situation that happened in and around Armenia in 2020 which was the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. So I will stop there because I believe you might have questions about this.

Reporter: And this is where I want to take this conversation to right now, Mr. Ambassador. Armenia has been deeply hurt by the conflict with Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh. Will the wounds of this war close or is there a fear of reopening?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Thank you for the question. Actually one of the issues we have is that we're witnessing right now with a big concern of course for us Azerbaijan is trying to take advantage of the situation in Ukraine and is trying to escalate the situation near the border with Armenia as well as in and around Nagorno-Karabakh.

So what we have witnessed over the past few weeks - there has been a violation of the ceasefires in various points including also on the borders with Armenia where a soldier was recently, just a couple of days ago was killed, unfortunately, an Armenian soldier. And also sniper is being used against Armenian villagers and people living there. Just this night, the entire night in the northeastern and southeastern borders of Nagorno-Karabakh with Azerbaijan there have been shellings using mortars, all sorts of weaponry scaring the villagers, also calling them to leave from these areas. Very strangely also Azeris are using loudspeakers to warn people to leave these areas because they claim that these are not theirs, "these are Azeri lands" so to say, as they use in their proclamations.

But the entire thing is using the opportunity to further scare the people to leave Nagorno-Karabakh and also to increase the tensions with the borders with Armenia. Also, something very striking, very strange we witnessed just a few days ago: the blasting of the main gas pipeline which is providing gas and electricity basically for 120 000 Armenians living in Nagorno-Karabakh and after that, the Azeris have not let the restoration of the work for the gas pipeline basically depriving people of the very basic fundamental rights and trying to do everything to empty Karabakh from Armenians which is absolutely unacceptable. This is something that we need to raise and the international community also needs to voice about.… We understand that the entire attention is right now on Ukraine but there is another issue that is simmering in the South Caucasus as well.

Reporter: Given what you have just described to me I suppose making amends with Baku and Yerevan is like something that is a very far away scenario for now. But can it ever happen without the need for third-party mediation? A role that was played by Russia in 2020. Russia guarantees the security of Armenia and the maintenance of the ceasefire, isn't that so?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Russia is not the guarantor of the security of Armenia in this case. It is the guarantor of the peace agreement which was signed by Armenia and Azerbaijan, co-signed by the Russian president. So Russia is an equal partner in this situation and is trying to make sure that these kinds of violations do not happen. But you're right that we are not so close to reaching the final solution of the conflict. The conflict is not solved as much as Azeri leadership claims that it is solved. It is not solved and it is acknowledged by everybody around the world especially the Minsk Group Co-chairs: the Russians, the Americans, and the French.

The French President just yesterday, when our Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan was in Paris, reiterated the French position that France is ready to help the solution of the conflict because the conflict is not yet solved, it's not yet resolved. So another dimension of this situation is of course the border with Armenia because when Azeris have entered the southern territory of Armenia, almost 45 hectares of Armenian territory in the southeastern part of Armenia is occupied by Azeri soldiers, and they are refusing to withdraw using it as a leverage on the Armenians in the negotiations. But also practically it's a huge problem. It's creating a lot of problems for the safe passage, the roads, for traveling from the south to the northern part of Armenia.

So one of the requests or demands of ours is that Azerbaijan needs to withdraw its forces from the sovereign territory of Armenia so that we could start the process of the delimitation of the borders between Armenia and Azerbaijan because that would actually lay the grounds for future peaceful coexistence between the two countries. But Azerbaijan refused this proposal and there was another proposal which was saying that we should, together, both of us withdraw our military forces from the borders and basically demilitarise this area. Azeris again are refusing to comply with this or to embrace this proposal and of course, these are things that need to be closely paid attention to.

One other issue which is of major concern is the cultural heritage because in Nagorno-Karabakh as you know in and around Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians have been living for thousands of years and there are several Armenian churches, cathedrals, Armenian architectural masterpieces in and around Nagorno-Karabakh and Azeris unfortunately, ever since the signature especially after the November 9th agreement there have been claims that these are not Armenian, there have been attempts to distort or eliminate wherever it's possible the Armenian cultural heritage.

And that's why right now when we speak, in the European Parliament there is a debate, discussion on a resolution which has been co-sponsored by several members of the European Parliament including Greek and Cypriot members, on the situation of the destruction of the Armenian cultural heritage in Nagorno-Karabakh. And the call is, of course, the first and foremost side to which it is addressed is Azerbaijan, calling to refrain from vandalising and distorting the cultural heritage in Nagorno-Karabakh.

Reporter: Now I would like to discuss your country's diplomatic relations with Turkey, our common neighbour. The relations for most of the time were almost hostile but they seem to be normalising lately. Do you think that the time has come to forget maybe the historical disagreements between Armenia and Turkey? Is there a way this can happen?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Nobody is forgetting anything. This should be very clearly said. Nobody is forgetting, if you're referring to the Armenian Genocide, nobody is, of course, ignoring or forgetting or putting aside the necessity or the importance of the Armenian Genocide recognition.

Reporter: I was only referring to the hostility, of course not the Genocide which is something that we will discuss.

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: The hostility was coming from basically because of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict also. So Turkey together with Azerbaijan considers that the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict is solved, therefore maybe it's an opportunity to move forward with Armenia although Armenia doesn't agree that the conflict is solved. And not only Armenia, but the international community also don't agree that the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh has been solved.

But Turkey has agreed to move forward on normalisation of relations with Armenia without preconditions. This is very important to understand because there have been already two meetings between the special envoys of Armenia and Turkey and after both meetings, the written press releases of the Turkish Foreign Ministry and the Armenian Foreign Ministry have underlined that the process is moving forward on the basis of the understanding that we are moving, we are negotiating on the basis of without preconditions.

This is the first time that Turkey has basically in a written form embraced this approach which has been the line of the Armenian side actually for three decades. For three decades we have been urging that we would like to have normalised relations with Turkey, open diplomatic missions, establish diplomatic relations and open the borders between Armenia and Turkey without any preconditions. And in the past, it was the Turkish side which was continuously putting preconditions and now we hope very much that Turkey will stick to this principle and we would eventually have normalised relations between the two countries.

Reporter: On the other hand, the relations of Armenia with Greece have always been excellent. There is a thriving Armenian community in Greece, in Thessaloniki. Is there room for even more, greater development and collaboration between the two countries?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: If you ask that question to any newcomer, incoming ambassador the question will definitely be obvious. "Of course there is and that's why we're working and that's where we will lead the relations. We'll do our best to improve the relations." I believe that your question is extremely important because in fact sometimes we believe that everything is so ideal that there is no need to exert the necessary effort in this or that area because we take for granted sometimes these relations that the Greeks know Armenians excellently, the Armenians know perfectly the Greeks. So the diplomatic missions all need to do is to maintain or sustain these relations, but in reality, the world is moving fast, it's progressing and the diplomats and the diplomatic missions and diplomatic relations are also to be upgraded, updated, and deepened.

So I think that in all areas of interaction between our states there are grounds for deepening the relations. So I can start with the political-diplomatic sphere, where we can of course increase the interactivity between both sides, deepen the political dialogue and hopefully reach a point when we can have a strategic partnership between these two countries, of course including also Cyprus as a trilateral partnership.

Secondly, the military cooperation is very good and is deepening and is continuing to do so. But there also we can have more options of cooperation on which we should, of course, both sides should work in this direction. Cultural exchanges should get actually more active because both countries are extremely rich in culture. It's very hard in Greece for example to impress anyone with cultural achievements or cultural masterpieces but Armenia has a lot which it can show here in Greece and Greece of course also can do a lot to share its culture in Armenia and increase the awareness of the younger generation actually about our cultural achievements.

Reporter: Maybe the cities can help with that? The ties that the Armenian and Greek cities have among them?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Definitely, and also the other sphere is academic exchanges and academic cooperation. This is extremely important because both countries have had very firm and very good traditions in academia and in scientific achievements. Now we can clearly share and enhance this cooperation as well. But most importantly I want to underline specifically is economic diplomacy which is one of the hardest areas to achieve visible success, because this usually takes a bit much longer, the impacts of the economic diplomacy of any embassy is usually becoming visible in a bit longer term. But for that, we need to exert our efforts because unfortunately, we don't have any common borders together…

Reporter: How can this be achieved? What should be done, in what ways you can achieve that?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Well, one of the ways is of course to make visible and advertise in both countries what each of us can offer to each other, and work specifically in these directions to bring in or export and import those products to each other. Sometimes I'm repeating that or saying that if and when I have a choice to select this or that product and if there is for example if there is a specific product made in Greece when I was let's say in Armenia or if I was in my previous posting, in the Baltic states, I would always choose a Greek product.

Because this is a product which is produced first of all by a brotherly country firm, number one, and number two which is the quality of which in terms of its ecological aspects its top quality for me. Armenia also has a lot of such things, such products which it can share here in Greece and import to Greece. Both markets are not so big as for example other markets that we're exporting our goods. Let's say be that France, Germany, Russia, or the United States, but we need to share each other's products and buy those products and the consumers need to be educated in this respect that it's important to buy let's say Armenian, this or that Armenian product and it's important to buy this or that Greek product.

For that, of course, we need to start organizing visits between the relevant institutions such as Enterprise Greece, Enterprise Armenia, identifying the areas where we can find cooperation and also engage relevant business sectors’ representatives in those meetings and try to promote the relations of course. So there is a lot that can be done and one of my areas of activity is also economic diplomacy.

Reporter: Now I understand that Armenia is also taking great steps in developing the tourism of the country. There is a transformation, I read recently about five small villages, they are transformed into autonomous travel destinations and they are advertising the local culture, the gastronomic culture, the food especially. How optimistic are you that tourists will embrace these efforts and try to see, make an effort to see this beautiful country up close?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Well, what we have seen is that over the last few years there has definitely been an increase in tourism in Armenia. So the trends are increasing in a positive sense. So what needs to be done is of course to make this more visible in Greece, specifically in Greece it should be made more visible. Together maybe with our partners and friends in the Aegean airlines which has direct Yerevan-Athens and back flights. So together with them and some other partners which have stakes and interest in increasing the tourism activity between Greece and Armenia we should work in this direction.

There is a big inflow of Armenian tourists to Greece during especially the summer period and immediately before and after the summer period. There is a lot to do in terms of attracting Greek tourists to Armenia. This is something that needs to be done because you rightly mentioned gastro tourism, there is also religious tourism for example. There are several pilgrimages from several European countries with groups traveling to medieval Armenian churches scattered throughout Armenia and these are fantastic places that are worth visiting.

And also Yerevan itself is a city which has its own attractions and attractive sites and life in Yerevan generally is very interesting, very active and a lot of people are streaming to Yerevan in summer. For the Greeks of course special interest is also the first-century temple, the Garni temple, which is one of the best-preserved Hellenistic temples in the world and I think every Greek should use the opportunity to see at least once this temple in his or her life.

Reporter: I would also like to ask you in what other ways does Armenia work towards its development? What are the advantages of the country over other countries and in which ways do you think it should be trying to move forward?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Well, first and foremost Armenia is pushing forward its economic development not only through reforms but trying to attract investors to Armenia, showing its cultural heritage… I wouldn't use the "advantage of one country against another country" because every country has its own special, peculiar features which attract people to it. So what Armenia is attractive with is we talked about gastro tourism, we spoke about cultural tourism, church tourism. The political atmosphere in the country is quite free, it is a free democratic state where everybody can enjoy life however he or she likes. In this part of the world, it is something very special, in our part of the world that is to say.

Also, the IT industry is something that is extremely important in our development and this is taking speed in, it is becoming one of the most important sectors of the Armenian economy and something that attracts a lot of people in the 21st century. This is basically the industry which is most talked about and which is the area of utmost interest - artificial intelligence. So in this respect, we have achieved a lot and we can share with others and we share with others actually. For example, the Armenian IT school TUMO has its own branches in Paris, in Berlin, in various places, in Lebanon, in Ukraine, in the US. So why not? I mean we could export this school also to Greece and we need of course to work in this direction.

Reporter: I would like to close this discussion with a question about the Armenian community of Thessaloniki. The Armenians of Thessaloniki were organised into a community in the early 1880s, almost a century and a half ago and they are one of the most dynamic in the city. Do you want to speak to us about this Armenian, Thessaloniki Armenian community?

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Well I know that a thousand years ago there were Armenians here, although formally the Armenians have been formed here rather recently in terms of Greek and Armenian history's lifespan, but a thousand years ago there were Armenians here as we were part of the Byzantine Empire and the Armenians had their special input in the Byzantine culture and politics.

So, regarding Thessaloniki Armenians. What I can say, this is the first time I'm coming here as an Ambassador of Armenia and I'm going to have a meeting with them today and tomorrow. What I know is it's a vibrant community, very organised, and very patriotic as well. It's extremely important for Armenia and for Armenians worldwide to have such communities who are becoming essential bridges between Armenia and Greece and Armenia and relevant cities and Thessaloniki Armenians are such. I'm very proud of them of course and I'm going to cooperate and work with them in advancing Armenian-Greek relations.

Reporter: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much for this discussion.

Ambassador Mkrtchyan: Thanks a lot, thank you for the invitation.

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